www.robertgraves.org Forum Index www.robertgraves.org
Robert Graves Online Discussion Forums
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

pentheus: why does graves anger the academics?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.robertgraves.org Forum Index -> The Greek Myths
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dinokeith1128
rhymer


Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:20 pm    Post subject: pentheus: why does graves anger the academics? Reply with quote

a few questions i'm sortof dying to know more about:
why is it that when i try to discuss ideas like pentheus being part of the sacrificial king myth or even just the possibility that the classics demonstrate a non-linear understanding of myth with people they flat out say that "i've been reading graves or campbell and that their ideas of myth have been dismissed by most classicists." as someone outside of academic circles: is this even true? and if so why is it assumed that these ideas of myth ie. matriarchal religion/ king sacrifice etc...(non-modern gender ideas) come from graves? is it thought that the astounding similarity in all tragic (and iliadic) plots are merely coincidence? i was under the impression that tragedy came from tragos and aeid- and meant goat song, connected with the sacrificial animal/dionysos cult which drama was originally a worship of. why are classical academics embracing a very non-mythical interpretation of plays like euripides' bacchae. some people say euripides is talking about the 5th century. to me that seems a stretch, unless you read into some few key lines alot. the overall impression of play to me seems like it is a non-linear dreamlike piece/ can anyone help with any of this?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dinokeith1128
rhymer


Joined: 23 Jan 2012
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:35 pm    Post subject: what is euripides? Reply with quote

in Mythology, Edith Hamilton writes "In his version of the story Creusa Euripides said to his audience 'Look at your Apollo the sunbright lord of the lyre the pure god of truth. This is what he did. He brutally forced a helpless young girl and then abandoned her.' The end of Greek mythology was at hand when such plays drew full houses in Athens." she represents a view that seems to ally Euripides with a trend to discredit superstition. Euripides however makes it ambiguous. it seems he loves paradox, and i think perhaps the misunderstanding arises when the ambiguity isn't appreciated for its own qualities. his mythology seems to be about how the gods represent the duality of life. this idea of only showing a single side of life, in other words, the virtuous and righteous prevailing etc. (=how immoral are our gods who are supposed to be always moral(?)) i don't really believe it is Euripides, I think his work is more likely to have been in opposition to that. i also believe that the ancient drama had different connotations than what modern people see as drama, although the ancient drama is always assigned without evidence the modern connotations. in a way i think i've answered my questions. i guess if you aren't comfortable with seeing ambiguity in your own existence, seeing it in Euripides, even to the extent that it is the philosophical purpose of Euripides, isn't going to work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
simontertius
rhymer


Joined: 01 May 2012
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 9:32 pm    Post subject: Myth and the Mythical Reply with quote

Bakkhos,

In your search after the true origins of myth, there is a book by an American author, Professor Richard Gotshawk, a compatriot of yours if I guess correctly, which it would be worth the effort to seek out. It is called 'Homer, Hesiod, Myth and Philosophy'. This is a hard book to read because of Gotshawk's convoluted but precise English. Still worth the effort if you want a comprehensive(and accurate) account of the origins of myth and its relation to Greek drama and consequently all drama and philosophy. Good luck in finding it.

Palinurus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jamemerritt614
rhymer


Joined: 05 Jan 2012
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:50 am    Post subject: Re: pentheus: why does graves anger the academics? Reply with quote

bakkhos wrote:
a few questions i'm sortof dying to know more about:
why is it that when i try to discuss ideas like pentheus being part of the sacrificial king myth or even just the possibility that the classics demonstrate a non-linear understanding of myth with people they flat out say that "i've been reading graves or campbell and that their ideas of myth have been dismissed by most classicists."


It is true that anthropological and archaeological approaches to myth are largely rejected by Classicists but then they also tend to limit the scope of their studies in many more obvious ways. Greek myths (like Greek gods) are not always Greek in origin.

You need to consider the location in which the myth is set to gain an understanding of its origins. Take the story of Orion for instance. It is in origin a version of the Ugaritic tale of Anath and Aqhat. Then there are the various national versions of the story of the hero swallowed by a sea creature off the coast of Joppa. He becomes Heracles in the Greek version and Jonah in the Hebrew version. "There is one story and one story only" ...

As for the work of the dramatists, the ritual undercurrents of Greek theatre were always there and in many cases determined the structure of their plays.

To get a more detailed view of this theme you should read the works of Jane Ellen Harrison and the other writers of the "Myth and Ritual" School. Their works, were also, of course, rejected by the stuffy, cosy Classicists whose elitist view of ancient Greek culture is always Victorian-Hellenistic. Most of these people have difficulty in coping with the fact that the pure white marble statues that they admire were once brightly painted.

Drama emerged from ritual drama which emerged as part of seasonal ritual. The book by Theodore Gaster, "Thespis" removes all doubt of this. His book contains the full text of many seasonal ritual dramas drawn from the Mediterranean, Egypt and the Middle East. He also had a profound understanding of the significance of these dramas to individuals and to their socities.

You should also look for an article entitled something like "The Modern Greek Carnival and the Cult of Dionysos" to get some idea of the continuity of the ritual pattern as mummer's play. The Eastern European mummers are closer to the Theme than those of Western Europe. Works about the Eastern European Calusari plays are also relevant to this research, particularly since their prime stated purpose is not "fertility" but healing.

Robert Graves knew what he was talking about and he wrote for other poets. He did not attempt to convince or convert anyone to his perspective. His works tend to be concentrated but he leaves the task of discovering the sources to his readers.

Don't waste time arguing with "Classicists" or with any academics whose researches are limited to a specific culture. The academic world is all about toeing the line, maintaining the status quo, respecting traditional boundaries and keeping within the confines of national borders and ethnic and linguistic groups. Such a narrow, distorted view ignores the mutual-culturalism of the past.

The Hurrians, for example, created tablets containing lists of correspondences between the names of equivalent deities in the various cultures that they encountered and also recorded variant versions of myths.

On one level this could be seen as a kind of theological book-keeping, but it also operated on a more profound level. It was not only technological and cultural innovations which spread throughout the ancient world, mythemes and other symbolic elements were transmitted in the same way as new vocabularies.

We know from inscriptions that it was common practice for people from one culture to recognise the presence of their gods in other cultures. There are enough multilingual inscriptions to make that fact plain. Academics from a monotheistic background dismiss this as syncretism and somehow miss the point.

Graves was on the right track and his cross-cultural perspective and in his understanding of the way in which iconography and ritual could morph into narrative will outlast the less challenging arguments of his critics who seem terrified to admit the fact that myth can have meaning.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.robertgraves.org Forum Index -> The Greek Myths All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group